02 March 2012

Your name unspoken when Russians chat.

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An Avian Conversation Without Names

I’ve tried since 2000 to get used to life in Russia but some things always will be problems.  After nearly 12 years here, and me close to 70 years old, we’re not moving back to the USA because it would take more money than I have.  So I just have to continually remind myself to adapt!

I miss the Small Talk and friendly greetings heard in the USA and some other parts of the world.  People in In Russia don’t smile at strangers. (They say here you must be drunk or insane to do so.)

The lack of smiles I’m used to, but I haven’t adjusted to people not saying my name during Small Talk.

A major social difference in Russia your teachers didn’t warn you about...

In the US most people understand the importance of  names.  Dale Carnegie pointed this out.  If you remember someone’s name... your neighbor, supermarket checker,  store clerk... you try to use it as a sign of friendliness, respect, and to make the talking go easier.

No one expects in Russia to be addressed by name when  neighbors or acquaintances meet. If I see our next door neighbor walking outside or in the corridor I say, ‘Draszy, Gala’.  Her reply since I’ve known her never includes my name.  Typical, but for a small town boy such as I, it gets on my nerves.

Also, a typical Russian doesn’t know or use a store clerk’s name even though he may speak with him a few times a week. I feel this keeps a layer of frost on casual greetings, diminishing good feeling on both sides of an otherwise pleasant exchange.

This is the way things are, and will be. 

Greetings without names is neither a negative reflection on Russians or intended rudeness.  Here name greetings of acquaintances is considered unnecessary... maybe even effusive, gauche, or trespassing.

In European reserve often wins over simple friendliness.  This behavior is enhanced in Russia by their customs on what to call people, and when to employ a name.

How Russians call each other... (if they do!)

In the Russian language, names are not used as often as when speaking English.  It’s the flip side of what I advise Russians about courtesies... When speaking English you must use more of please, excuse me, thank you, and try not to give yes or  no without softening words.

If it’s family or a close friend, you may hear a simple first name... but less frequently than in English.

My son-in-law and his mother have always called Larissa with her patronymic, Ivanova tacked on.  But Larissa Ivanova sounds too formal to Larissa’s ears.  Authority figures at work, and people you don’t know well are called this way, a first name... then a middle name, a patronym based on the first name  of the father.

If you don’t know the full two name greeting, it is sometimes considered better to skip it than to use just a first name.

The good and bad of American social attitudes...

Wide open smiles, enthusiastic and loud greetings, and ferocious eye contact by some Americans can be a little scary to more reserved and diffident Russians.  Americans have no trouble initiating conversations  with strangers, say on the elevator or in your own apartment building.

This friendliness is usually innocent and just what I miss, but their is a dark side to American social dealings. They are often seen as aggressive... a steam roller, the conquering American.  I understand this reaction as I am put off by brash attitudes in some American television we have on our TVs here.

Violent thriller movies, the Discovery Channel, and now the Disney Channel are examples.  The Discovery Channel is especially awful... Bragadochios hefting guns, driving huge noisy trucks, swaggering.

Russians are a more passive people than Americans, also  sometimes good, sometimes bad.  They are less aggressive than Americans in simple social exchanges, and even geopolitically. 

They don’t have the background which makes the American culture prone to missionary zeal, and semi-psychotic preventive attack.  Americans feel they can change the world to fit them.

Here, people are more ‘live and let live’ believing in minding their own business.  They are less likely to have an agenda when dealing with other people... but also they are not as adventurous in finding new friends. 

Full circle!

Social attitudes in Russia and the USA are revealed by how and if names are employed in normal greetings.  I still use names when greeting my Russian friends and acquaintances but understand that they won’t or cannot return the favor.

Comments appreciated!  I’m eager to get your take on name/no name greetings. 

- When chatting casually do you learn and try to use the other’s name?

- When speaking another language do you switch etiquette gears? 

- Have you noticed a similar situation in other regions or countries?

 

 

19 comments:

  1. I had just the opposite experience with the use of names when speaking with Russian acquaintances in the early 1990s. It seemed like almost every sentence spoken to me began "Bill,...." I found it very disconcerting to hear my name so often, but I decided it was just a Russian cultural peculiarity. I tried not to let it bother me too much. My first attempts at reciprocity were a little awkward, remembering to add a person's name too late, with it coming at the end...like an afterthought.

    Things have changed a little in the last twenty years. There may also be regional differences.

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    1. Hi Bill,

      Maybe these Russians understood the American custom with first names. Regional differences or the passing of years could make a difference here, too. Your experience should have equal weight with any of mine, as you have lived here a long time, also.

      Thanks!

      Rob

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  2. Probably you are right about names, but let me point at couple things. First - if a Russian is not sure what your name is or how pronounce it right, they won't say it and second - Russian address people after around 50 by their first and patronimic names and they feel it's not polite just to say someone's first name... so again, they don't say your name. Can I be right here?

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    1. Hi Archer's Mom,

      Yes, my wife for an example, is particular about how she pronounces English, while I don't give that as much importance.

      You gave me an idea that may solve my problem of rarely being addressed by name. I noticed recently that my medical records were entitled Robert Robertovich, the result of a joke I had made. Perhaps if I tell people that's my name, I'll get more friendly greetings!

      Thanks!

      Rob

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  3. Very interesting point of view.

    I - myself being of Russian origin (born in Lithuania) can attest to the fact that when speaking in Russian - usage of names in conversations is reserved for family members and friends/colleagues.

    Now, I live in Israel and speaking in Hebrew widens the circle of people who are addressed using their name. However, I still wouldn't greet the clerk by name.

    Here I, however, must correct myself. Possibly what I said above relates to Jews of European origin (Ashkenazi). Those of Eastern/North African origin (Sephardi) are more cordial and will often address other people in closer way and literally "pinch your cheek" - which possibly would elicit some reaction of rejection from my side.

    I think that Russians interpret too much of "friendliness" with suspicion. Why is he/she so friendly to me? It cannot be genuine. There must be some underlying ulterior motives. And definitely American smiles are "fake" ;-)

    By the way, one other important difference that you didn't mention is the presence of two forms of "You" (TY/VY). The first reserved for family/close friends/junior. Second for strangers/elder/bosses.

    Between strangers (of the same age and position) transition from "VY" to "TY" symbolizes the upgrade in relationships.

    By the way, you meant "Larissa Ivanovna", not "Larissa Ivanova" :-)

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    1. Hello Augis,

      Thanks for sharing your varied experience... a Russian in Lithuania, now Israel.

      After 12 years surrounded with the Russian outlook, I too am wary of people with smiles and friendliness at times.

      Just recently I found in Oxford Take Off In Russian, a phrase about suggesting the switch from вы на ты.

      Thanks!

      Rob

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  4. Hi Rob, Looks like you have caused some controversy with this one. as friendly as the Spanish can be they never seem too bothered about your name either so they have all these words, chicco, cabellero, senor, usted, etc to address you by.

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    1. Hola, Chicco!

      Yes, I like that custom... better than being addressed with no name, anyway. You convey this upbeat attitude of Spain well in your book, Spain Exposed.

      Thanks!

      Rob

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  5. I agree with Augis about using names. I am Russian and I don't like strangers address my by my name (e.x. bank clerks, receptions, etc). I feel comfortable about people saying my name only if they are my family and friends.
    When I just started communicating in English I was pointed out a few times by my foreign friends that what I said was coming across rather rude and not polite, because in Russian we don't necessarily use "please" and "thank you" especially when talking with our friends and family, it's conveyed more in the tone of voice sometimes but not in words. For example, in Russia you can say "bring the chair" with asking intonation and it's ok to talk like that. But I learned that in English it would be more proper to say "Please could you bring me the chair?"
    I think that maybe it is coming from 1917 Revolution when all the good manners became considered as a sign of the social circle that was being fought against. Another explanation would be that being a cold (climatically) country it makes people less friendly - it's kind of hard to be friendly and pleasant when wind is blowing in your face, or cold rain makes you want to finish all the business outside asap to be able to go back home, or you walk in from outside with your face half frozen and lips hard to move :) On the bright side, in northern countries people are more honest and tend to say what they truly think.

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    2. Hello Гала,

      Yes, social actions in Russia require an understanding of tone and facial expression as the polite words are suggested that way, and not spoken. I remember my Philippine nurse in New York City was angry about how rude Russian nurses were to their patients... no one realizing why they came across that way.

      I like that it's easier to know what people think in Russia than in America, where people can at times be superficial.

      Thanks!

      Rob

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  6. Thanks for sharing. I am French, lived many years in Japan and United States and greetings rituals are very important to understand.

    Japanese don't hug like Americans and don't kiss like French, they bow and add -sama at the end of your last name if you are a customer or the boss. They can use your first name with -san like Ann-san in my case but you should use the last name and -san for most Japanese people you work with,

    In France it is quite complicated it depends on the generation and the situation. I think the new generation use first names like Americans but won't smile at strangers or try casual talks at a sore or with neighbors especially in big cities.

    Personally I like the smiles and the small casual talks with Americans but it can be interpreted as very superficial and not really honest by some French people.

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    1. Hi Anne,

      You must be quite flexible to deal with unique cultures over the years. I miss the random chats found in Britain and the US, but also remember that emotions expressed in America can be shallow and not enduring.

      Russian TV programs, and especially commercials, are full of large smiles and chattering, so this may be having an influence good or bad on the populace.

      Thanks!

      Rob

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  7. I'm sorry to say, times are changing in the U.S.! I think my father (67) makes a point to use names as often as possible...for example, if a waitress has introduced herself. But in general I think people are a bit more reserved in using names than you noted in your post.

    I do know that clerks were trained at one point to use a person's name (for example, read it on the credit card...Mrs.Smith...and then say, "Thank you, Mrs. Smith"). However, my mother (60) doesn't like this. She feels it's an invasion of privacy. So I guess we all have our preferences, but they could depend on culture, age, upbringing, or other factors.

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    1. Hi Liz,

      I'm happy to hear from another SPb blogger, at On Life in St Petersburg.

      Times are changing and I haven't been back since 2004, enough time for the use of names to be transitioning.

      Thanks!

      Rob

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  8. Thanks for the link, Rob, enjoyed your perceptive and stimulating take on the use of names. Maybe things would be different if we Irish had sailed East instead of West over the last couple of centuries? ;)

    David

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    1. Hi David,

      Sounds like Wrong Way Corrigan who reputedly flew west instead of east!

      The Irish are great conversation starters anywhere so I think that Russians would be more effervescent for sure!

      Great to trade books on Book Mooch with people such as you and your wife!

      Rob

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  9. Hi, and thanks for the info displayed on this blog :)

    I'd like to add a few things about what Anne said:
    I'm French too, and I confirm that in France, smiling to strangers in the streets is as uncommon as it is in Russia : if you do so and that you're not drunk, people will think that you're either retarded, or hypocritical (that's actually what I would think, and all the people to which I've talked about it said they would think the same).

    I guess it must be a norm shared everywhere in Europe : I've been in Belgium, Switzerland and Scotland, some of my relatives have been in the Netherlands, Spain and Italy, and I've also read on an expat forum (French people living in Finland) that it is the same over there, so I guess we can say it's an European stuff. I wonder if smiling to strangers is also common in Canada, I mean as common as it is in the US.

    In France, the kisses only happen between relatives or friend (though the young generation can hug their friends/relatives instead of kissing them on the cheek), and using first names by talking to someone also only occurs with relatives or friend -the idea of my banker calling me by my first name is just unthinkable, it would be a kind of intrusion in my privacy.... of course, my banker / any clerk or shop owner would feel the same if I was calling them by their first name. It could happen and be accepted if you knew the said clerk since a lot of time, and quite intimately : if it's been 2 years that you're spending most of your Saturday afternoons in the same shop, you can call the owner/clerk by his/her first name, it won't be shocking (actually, that's something that will certainly happen naturally over time).

    Also, in most workplaces, (military is of course an exception), in France the day begins with greeting all co-workers by calling them by their first names and kissing them on the cheek (if they are women) or shaking their hands (if they are men). With the boss or any hierarchic superior, only hand shakes are expected, and only if he or she acts first.

    Casual talk between strangers can sometimes happen, but doesn't last long : a dozen of words at best, and when it does miraculously happen, it's usually triggered by a curious / unexpected / amuzing event, like this day when I was walking in the streets of Lille (the local « capital », like Miami in Florida, LA in California, Boston in Mass... you get the idea : the region's biggest city) and came across a dog staring at a pine cone in the middle of the side walk, looking puzzled about it and sniffing it while turning around it: I've exchanged a couple of words with other bystanders amuzed with the scene, but not more (I don't remember who started it), and then everyone got back to their own lives a few dozen of seconds later when the dog lost interest about the pine cone. It was in the North of France, were people are said to be much more demonstrative than elsewhere.

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  10. About what Гала said concerning good manners (« I think that maybe it is coming from 1917 Revolution when all the good manners became considered as a sign of the social circle that was being fought against »), it seems to be the true reason:
    I've read on a website about dating Russian women that at the time of soviet Russia, good manners were considered as a « bourgeois survival » (in the words of the site owner, a Russian woman) by the soviet government (should I say... « ruling class » ? :) ), and as far as I remember about Russian litterature (Nikolai Gogol) that I've read at school, in the times of the Czar people seemed to have the same good manners as everywhere in Europe when talking to each other (« please », « well », etc.)... if that's how the characters behaved in Gogol's works (if memory serves well) and that it was never mentioned as something special or unusual, then it must have been common, so good manners were certainly the norm in pre-soviet Russia. Looks like communism has influenced Russian behavior down to the bone marrow... I'm tempted to write « corrupted » or « destroyed » instead of « influenced » :)

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