tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post3491298509122338762..comments2023-03-30T13:50:04.521+03:00Comments on American Russia Observations: Your name unspoken when Russians chat.Rob MacDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-88332856078021168142012-07-22T19:20:20.143+04:002012-07-22T19:20:20.143+04:00About what Гала said concerning good manners (« I ...About what Гала said concerning good manners (« I think that maybe it is coming from 1917 Revolution when all the good manners became considered as a sign of the social circle that was being fought against »), it seems to be the true reason: <br />I've read on a website about dating Russian women that at the time of soviet Russia, good manners were considered as a « bourgeois survival » (in the words of the site owner, a Russian woman) by the soviet government (should I say... « ruling class » ? :) ), and as far as I remember about Russian litterature (Nikolai Gogol) that I've read at school, in the times of the Czar people seemed to have the same good manners as everywhere in Europe when talking to each other (« please », « well », etc.)... if that's how the characters behaved in Gogol's works (if memory serves well) and that it was never mentioned as something special or unusual, then it must have been common, so good manners were certainly the norm in pre-soviet Russia. Looks like communism has influenced Russian behavior down to the bone marrow... I'm tempted to write « corrupted » or « destroyed » instead of « influenced » :)Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-25001559905014389682012-07-22T19:19:16.535+04:002012-07-22T19:19:16.535+04:00Hi, and thanks for the info displayed on this blog...Hi, and thanks for the info displayed on this blog :)<br /><br />I'd like to add a few things about what Anne said:<br />I'm French too, and I confirm that in France, smiling to strangers in the streets is as uncommon as it is in Russia : if you do so and that you're not drunk, people will think that you're either retarded, or hypocritical (that's actually what I would think, and all the people to which I've talked about it said they would think the same).<br /><br />I guess it must be a norm shared everywhere in Europe : I've been in Belgium, Switzerland and Scotland, some of my relatives have been in the Netherlands, Spain and Italy, and I've also read on an expat forum (French people living in Finland) that it is the same over there, so I guess we can say it's an European stuff. I wonder if smiling to strangers is also common in Canada, I mean as common as it is in the US.<br /><br />In France, the kisses only happen between relatives or friend (though the young generation can hug their friends/relatives instead of kissing them on the cheek), and using first names by talking to someone also only occurs with relatives or friend -the idea of my banker calling me by my first name is just unthinkable, it would be a kind of intrusion in my privacy.... of course, my banker / any clerk or shop owner would feel the same if I was calling them by their first name. It could happen and be accepted if you knew the said clerk since a lot of time, and quite intimately : if it's been 2 years that you're spending most of your Saturday afternoons in the same shop, you can call the owner/clerk by his/her first name, it won't be shocking (actually, that's something that will certainly happen naturally over time).<br /><br />Also, in most workplaces, (military is of course an exception), in France the day begins with greeting all co-workers by calling them by their first names and kissing them on the cheek (if they are women) or shaking their hands (if they are men). With the boss or any hierarchic superior, only hand shakes are expected, and only if he or she acts first.<br /><br />Casual talk between strangers can sometimes happen, but doesn't last long : a dozen of words at best, and when it does miraculously happen, it's usually triggered by a curious / unexpected / amuzing event, like this day when I was walking in the streets of Lille (the local « capital », like Miami in Florida, LA in California, Boston in Mass... you get the idea : the region's biggest city) and came across a dog staring at a pine cone in the middle of the side walk, looking puzzled about it and sniffing it while turning around it: I've exchanged a couple of words with other bystanders amuzed with the scene, but not more (I don't remember who started it), and then everyone got back to their own lives a few dozen of seconds later when the dog lost interest about the pine cone. It was in the North of France, were people are said to be much more demonstrative than elsewhere.Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-88957278267920039902012-06-13T12:12:11.440+04:002012-06-13T12:12:11.440+04:00Hi David,
Sounds like Wrong Way Corrigan who repu...Hi David,<br /><br />Sounds like Wrong Way Corrigan who reputedly flew west instead of east! <br /><br />The Irish are great conversation starters anywhere so I think that Russians would be more effervescent for sure! <br /><br />Great to trade books on Book Mooch with people such as you and your wife!<br /><br />RobRob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-21685929904913660682012-06-13T12:06:19.307+04:002012-06-13T12:06:19.307+04:00Hi Liz,
I'm happy to hear from another SPb bl...Hi Liz,<br /><br />I'm happy to hear from another SPb blogger, at On Life in St Petersburg. <br /><br />Times are changing and I haven't been back since 2004, enough time for the use of names to be transitioning.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />RobRob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-24224856746764295962012-06-13T11:54:32.069+04:002012-06-13T11:54:32.069+04:00Hi Anne,
You must be quite flexible to deal with ...Hi Anne,<br /><br />You must be quite flexible to deal with unique cultures over the years. I miss the random chats found in Britain and the US, but also remember that emotions expressed in America can be shallow and not enduring.<br /> <br />Russian TV programs, and especially commercials, are full of large smiles and chattering, so this may be having an influence good or bad on the populace.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />RobRob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-45614723505575895492012-06-13T11:39:10.328+04:002012-06-13T11:39:10.328+04:00Hello Гала,
Yes, social actions in Russia require...Hello Гала,<br /><br />Yes, social actions in Russia require an understanding of tone and facial expression as the polite words are suggested that way, and not spoken. I remember my Philippine nurse in New York City was angry about how rude Russian nurses were to their patients... no one realizing why they came across that way.<br /><br />I like that it's easier to know what people think in Russia than in America, where people can at times be superficial.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />RobRob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-35975531063392692392012-06-13T11:37:07.813+04:002012-06-13T11:37:07.813+04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-81738873981776487902012-06-13T11:19:35.650+04:002012-06-13T11:19:35.650+04:00Hola, Chicco!
Yes, I like that custom... better t...Hola, Chicco!<br /><br />Yes, I like that custom... better than being addressed with no name, anyway. You convey this upbeat attitude of Spain well in your book, Spain Exposed. <br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />RobRob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-62658931849382082982012-06-13T11:13:42.911+04:002012-06-13T11:13:42.911+04:00Hello Augis,
Thanks for sharing your varied exper...Hello Augis,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your varied experience... a Russian in Lithuania, now Israel. <br /><br />After 12 years surrounded with the Russian outlook, I too am wary of people with smiles and friendliness at times. <br /> <br />Just recently I found in Oxford Take Off In Russian, a phrase about suggesting the switch from вы на ты. <br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />RobRob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-77236216408617813772012-06-13T10:57:59.819+04:002012-06-13T10:57:59.819+04:00Hi Archer's Mom,
Yes, my wife for an example,...Hi Archer's Mom,<br /><br />Yes, my wife for an example, is particular about how she pronounces English, while I don't give that as much importance.<br /><br />You gave me an idea that may solve my problem of rarely being addressed by name. I noticed recently that my medical records were entitled Robert Robertovich, the result of a joke I had made. Perhaps if I tell people that's my name, I'll get more friendly greetings!<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />RobRob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-3898502674671028292012-06-13T10:35:55.572+04:002012-06-13T10:35:55.572+04:00Hi Bill,
Maybe these Russians understood the Ame...Hi Bill,<br /> <br />Maybe these Russians understood the American custom with first names. Regional differences or the passing of years could make a difference here, too. Your experience should have equal weight with any of mine, as you have lived here a long time, also.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />RobRob MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17050545070418063352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-54559967945085821872012-04-12T13:42:17.817+04:002012-04-12T13:42:17.817+04:00Thanks for the link, Rob, enjoyed your perceptive ...Thanks for the link, Rob, enjoyed your perceptive and stimulating take on the use of names. Maybe things would be different if we Irish had sailed East instead of West over the last couple of centuries? ;)<br /><br />DavidDeemachttp://bookmooch.com/m/bio/deemacnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-59975959075998232962012-04-09T20:34:44.401+04:002012-04-09T20:34:44.401+04:00I'm sorry to say, times are changing in the U....I'm sorry to say, times are changing in the U.S.! I think my father (67) makes a point to use names as often as possible...for example, if a waitress has introduced herself. But in general I think people are a bit more reserved in using names than you noted in your post.<br /><br />I do know that clerks were trained at one point to use a person's name (for example, read it on the credit card...Mrs.Smith...and then say, "Thank you, Mrs. Smith"). However, my mother (60) doesn't like this. She feels it's an invasion of privacy. So I guess we all have our preferences, but they could depend on culture, age, upbringing, or other factors.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15283395756742923658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-12864245616418002232012-03-29T00:27:41.009+04:002012-03-29T00:27:41.009+04:00Thanks for sharing. I am French, lived many years ...Thanks for sharing. I am French, lived many years in Japan and United States and greetings rituals are very important to understand. <br /><br />Japanese don't hug like Americans and don't kiss like French, they bow and add -sama at the end of your last name if you are a customer or the boss. They can use your first name with -san like Ann-san in my case but you should use the last name and -san for most Japanese people you work with,<br /><br />In France it is quite complicated it depends on the generation and the situation. I think the new generation use first names like Americans but won't smile at strangers or try casual talks at a sore or with neighbors especially in big cities.<br /><br />Personally I like the smiles and the small casual talks with Americans but it can be interpreted as very superficial and not really honest by some French people.Annehttp://zestnzen.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-39439405910313574202012-03-25T15:58:51.212+04:002012-03-25T15:58:51.212+04:00I agree with Augis about using names. I am Russian...I agree with Augis about using names. I am Russian and I don't like strangers address my by my name (e.x. bank clerks, receptions, etc). I feel comfortable about people saying my name only if they are my family and friends. <br />When I just started communicating in English I was pointed out a few times by my foreign friends that what I said was coming across rather rude and not polite, because in Russian we don't necessarily use "please" and "thank you" especially when talking with our friends and family, it's conveyed more in the tone of voice sometimes but not in words. For example, in Russia you can say "bring the chair" with asking intonation and it's ok to talk like that. But I learned that in English it would be more proper to say "Please could you bring me the chair?"<br />I think that maybe it is coming from 1917 Revolution when all the good manners became considered as a sign of the social circle that was being fought against. Another explanation would be that being a cold (climatically) country it makes people less friendly - it's kind of hard to be friendly and pleasant when wind is blowing in your face, or cold rain makes you want to finish all the business outside asap to be able to go back home, or you walk in from outside with your face half frozen and lips hard to move :) On the bright side, in northern countries people are more honest and tend to say what they truly think.Галаhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252419402977508113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-68476964174759956232012-03-20T20:52:27.351+04:002012-03-20T20:52:27.351+04:00Hi Rob, Looks like you have caused some controvers...Hi Rob, Looks like you have caused some controversy with this one. as friendly as the Spanish can be they never seem too bothered about your name either so they have all these words, chicco, cabellero, senor, usted, etc to address you by.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13468140560756430446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-73917508113033280732012-03-04T19:42:27.264+04:002012-03-04T19:42:27.264+04:00Very interesting point of view.
I - myself being ...Very interesting point of view.<br /><br />I - myself being of Russian origin (born in Lithuania) can attest to the fact that when speaking in Russian - usage of names in conversations is reserved for family members and friends/colleagues.<br /><br />Now, I live in Israel and speaking in Hebrew widens the circle of people who are addressed using their name. However, I still wouldn't greet the clerk by name.<br /><br />Here I, however, must correct myself. Possibly what I said above relates to Jews of European origin (Ashkenazi). Those of Eastern/North African origin (Sephardi) are more cordial and will often address other people in closer way and literally "pinch your cheek" - which possibly would elicit some reaction of rejection from my side.<br /><br />I think that Russians interpret too much of "friendliness" with suspicion. Why is he/she so friendly to me? It cannot be genuine. There must be some underlying ulterior motives. And definitely American smiles are "fake" ;-) <br /><br />By the way, one other important difference that you didn't mention is the presence of two forms of "You" (TY/VY). The first reserved for family/close friends/junior. Second for strangers/elder/bosses.<br /><br />Between strangers (of the same age and position) transition from "VY" to "TY" symbolizes the upgrade in relationships.<br /><br />By the way, you meant "Larissa Ivanovna", not "Larissa Ivanova" :-)Augishttp://redhotrussia.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-83077918138952754752012-03-04T12:59:55.675+04:002012-03-04T12:59:55.675+04:00Probably you are right about names, but let me poi...Probably you are right about names, but let me point at couple things. First - if a Russian is not sure what your name is or how pronounce it right, they won't say it and second - Russian address people after around 50 by their first and patronimic names and they feel it's not polite just to say someone's first name... so again, they don't say your name. Can I be right here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9030144909492747445.post-72914945197707355092012-03-03T13:09:51.789+04:002012-03-03T13:09:51.789+04:00I had just the opposite experience with the use of...I had just the opposite experience with the use of names when speaking with Russian acquaintances in the early 1990s. It seemed like almost every sentence spoken to me began "Bill,...." I found it very disconcerting to hear my name so often, but I decided it was just a Russian cultural peculiarity. I tried not to let it bother me too much. My first attempts at reciprocity were a little awkward, remembering to add a person's name too late, with it coming at the end...like an afterthought.<br /><br />Things have changed a little in the last twenty years. There may also be regional differences.bill.everetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16920758387477620473noreply@blogger.com